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Poker Log Entry for DeiYuo

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January 8, 2007, 6PM:
Poker Stars Caribbean Adventure - Atlantis Bahamas - Day 2

Started the day with 451 players remaing in the main event.
 
I got to deal from start of the day to the end when 123 remain after more than 300 were slaughtered, pretty amazing to think so many players would go broke.
 
This day you could really see the change in the caliber of player.  After not dealing for almost 2 years I could really see the difference in styles.  It seems to be that the I find 4 "types" of players that make it this far.  There are the weak passives, ultra tight aggressives, tricky aggressives and then the super solid tricky aggressives. 
 
The weak passives are easy to spot.  They do shit like not play a hand for 4 rounds then limp in the cutoff 1st in the pot.  Then when the board comes A49 and it is checked to them they check, usually checking it down and losing to the BB with a hand like 58 for a pair when their KQs doesn't improve.  I think the way these monkeys survive is when they do get a monster hand they end up reluctantly calling aggressive players and doubling up.  I saw this one guy raise, get re-raised and debate about folding his JJ when 75% of his chips where in the pot.
 
The ultra tight aggressives are really annoying to watch play and I pray that I never play like this(although I think I am guilty of this from time to time).  These guys sit on their stacks just like the weak passives but when they do get a hand they raise or re-raise with them.  Their major weakness is overbetting hands getting their opponensts to fold and being so transparent that they can't get action and are easy to trap.  They also can't acumulate a large stack relying only on their cards.  I watched a very talented player bust one of these guys.  The tight one had 99 and the talented one had KJ.  The KJ had raised in late position to attack the blinds and the tight 99 went all in on the button.  The talented one had a huge stack that would not be dented by this guy, called and busted him.  When the 99 tight left he told another "maniac" that he called because he knew it was a coin toss, that he was 99% certain this guy had a pair 2-Ts.  He stated, "If this guy had AK, AQ, KQ he would have folded or just called, if he had QQ, KK or AA, he would have made a very small raise and not gone all in.  Very true.
 
The next player type I just admire are the Tricky Aggressives.  You never know what the hell they have.  A prime example is our friend Layne Flack, but more in control.  Capable of anything on anyone at anytime.  These guys are fearless and put their tournament lives at risk without a thought.  Their obvious upside is the ability to amass chips while downside is.. well, going broke in two hands.  An example of this I saw today was this kid who re-raised preflop with Q8, got called by the original raiser, flopped an 8, turned a Queen and got the pocked 7s to pay him off thinking he had AK.  Two hands later this same player that had Q8, re-raised an UTG pre raiser with KK, the UTG player made a moderate re-raise and the Q8 guy with KK layed it down face up! The UTG guy showed AA and the whole table was shocked.  I clearly thought this guy that had re-raised with Q8 was not capable or thoughful enough to lay down KK, my impression was that he was nutszo.
 
Our last profile is the super solid tricky aggressives.  These guys you rarely see and I wish one day I could possess these skills.  These guys are the ones who are extremely talented.  They are constantly mixing up their plays, limping on the button with trach or with monsters, raising UTG with 98s or AA.  Check raising the flop with either top set of nothing, a draw, top pair, who knows.  Generaly when I deal I have an idea what players have but with these guys I am lost.
 
One major thing happened today while dealing that was shocking and sad.  A player moves all in from UTG, everyone folds to the 10 seat whos vision is blocked of the 3 seats all in move although it had been announced.  The 10 seat, on the button, goes all in for less than the 3 seat, the big and small blind folds.  The three seat rolls over A7 and as I turn to see the 10 seats hand he releases it towards the muck face down after showing it to half that side of the table excaiming, "they didn't call?"
(he was shoced because the BB and SB had huge stacks and constantly called all in players) He cards ended up sliding from his hands onto my muck pile and rested visiably distinguishable from the rest.  The table went nuts.  First, the all in player declared his hand dead and demanded I give him the pot.  Another player told me to get his cards out of the muck since we all could see which ones they were, stating that an all in player can not fold even if he wants to for reasons of collusion.(which is partially true).  The all in mucker in seat 10 physically tried to grab them from the muck and I stopped him.  A player in the middle seat started fuming about the possibitity of his hand being retrieved from the muck, that these floor people are the worst ever( I agree a bit with him here that they are morons and unprofessional but..)
Generally no matter what happens in a game I can fix and solve the problem.  Rarely do I call the floor over, unless the players do not like my correction and contest it, in which case I make them call the floor and usually am sided with.
 
In this case I was not about to make this decision.  I can't decide to kill this guys hand and emiminate him from the tourney with less than 200 players left.  Then again, how can I take his cards out of the muck and fuck the other all in player out of a hand that is dead.  I mean, if I was the other all in player I would be pissed.  So, the floor rolls over and I explain to him the situation.  He decides that since his cards where seen by 5 players, that there was no pending action when his cards where mucked, since his vision was blocked of seat 3s all-in and that his cards were cleary retrivable that his hand would be live and not ruled dead. 
So I turned this guys AK face up, he only had about 25% of what the other all in player had in chips.  The other guy had A rag,(A6 or A7), The asshole fuck head in the middle seat not even in the hand gets all irrate with this ruling.
Declaring that this is wrong, his hand is dead and he wants another decison from the head Tournament Director.  This is where this floor man fucks up.  He tells me to hold up and goes to get the tournament director, this guy is "just" an assistant.  If he was smart and had balls he would have told this player that he is not involved in the hand and that this is his final decision.  If he does not like this ruling that he speak with him and the Director on the next break or when he is out of a hand.  Instead the assistant gets the Director at the table.  As the TD addresses player issues he comes to the table to solve a problem and is adressed 1st by the middle player not in the hand that wishes to see this hand ruled dead.  He then listens to my re-explaintion of the situation and does not have a fresh perspective of the situation as the mid player slants it to be a folded hand and I naturaly defend the mucker.  The TD rules the hand dead, that it is the player's responsiblity to protect his hand, sorry bye bye.
 
I don't really know where I stand on this situation.  I mean, if this were a cash game, I would have mucked and mixed those cards together and pushed the other guy the pot in a heart beat.  Where I am confused is the fact that this guy showed 4 other players his hand, had already called and there was no sustantial action behind him.  **Regarding the muck though** This is the true "line" for black white and grey.  Under these conditions the tournament director set he is pretty much saying, any foreward motion equals dead hand.  If this guy's cards had only gone a few inches foreward but not touched the muck would the TD allow him to grab them again and roll them over? Yes! What if they barely touched the edge of a mucked card? Yes! What if the skimmed over the muck and went to the other side of the table? Yes! What if they went onto the muck, could be distinguished but rested there? NO!?!
 
Sad situation I don't like to see, one thing is for sure, this player will NEVER EVER do this agian.
 
This is why I always tell players to NEVER release their cards until they have been awarded the pot.

Last Update: January 8, 2007, 7:54PM


3 Comments


I am an asshole...so I would probably kill the hand and use the book as an excuse...I have been in many situations where because of the actions of the other player I am willing to retrieve a hand from the muck...such as a misrepresentation or something, but that's not the case here.  I do agree with your choice to go and get a floor and let him decide in what is clearly a major decision.  It sucks when you aren't surrounded with people that are as well informed in regards to the rules of the game.  I hate leaving it in someone's hands that I know will fuck it up for everyone.  I think if the rules were 100% clear on situations it would be much easier...they say if you make a mucking motion or whatever then it's dead...but clearly that's not always true...the jackass should pay attention..if you can't see then either stand up and look or ask...it's a pretty big move...it's like a player watching TV or something and then acting without having any clue how the action went. 
 
I also agree with DeDobber..the decision should be the same.  There are many dynamics that make tournaments different in some aspects..but this isn't one of them.  The donkey didn't pay enough attention and mucked his hand..it's dead.  He can show Baby Jesus for all I care, it doesn't matter that his neighbors saw it..he showed them and tossed it.  Over, end of story, enjoy the rail...don't do it again jackass.

Posted by dnshy on January 13, 2007, 3:27PM


The situation is a "folded" hand when it should be rolled over but the player overlooks the call or whatever. 
 
In a cash game I would muck the hand instantly and the tournament protect it for one reason only. 
 
In a cash game the moron that folded can buy more chips, continue to play and learn from his mistake.
 
In a tournament, the guy has played maybe 2+ days, most are internet players with little to no live experience so do not know proper procedures and lastly it is just not "fair" tournament poker, to give all of a players chips to his opponent once they both are all in seems wrong.  I am not advocating that his hand is always live and should be retriveved at all costs.  I'm just not so willing to muck it.

Posted by DeiYuo on January 10, 2007, 1:13PM


Great story.  TD made the wrong call.  what I don't understand is what incentive he has to be so conservative? Seems like floorman would be more likely to make the "book" call (hand in muck is dead), while TD has nobody to answer to and should be able to save the guy's hand.
 
Don't release the cards until the pot has been awarded to you...good lesson.
 
PS: You should not say you would do one thing in a cash game and something else in a tournament.  That is like saying "I'll be more conservative and play by the book for a $3 bet, and only do the right thing if a lot of money is at stake."

Posted by DeDobber on January 9, 2007, 7:53PM


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